Curse

nirhan shadowmauler · Dec 11, 2005, 09:23 AM // 09:23

iway + berserker rage = fast adrenaline axe attacks. sadly berserker rage has a long recharge.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 11, 2005, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I personally hate IWAY groups but I think it would be much more effective with 2 axe, 2 sword, and 2 hammer warriors. If you could get the team to work together and have 1 of each split into 2 groups and attack different targets it would be much more effective. Just have the sword warriors cause bleeding, the axe cause deep wound, and the hammer keep them knocked down.

Burton2000 · Dec 11, 2005, 12:55 PM // 12:55

i think that idea of 2 sword 2 axe 2 hammer and splitting into 2 groups is very good.I'm going to create the build now.

tafy69 · Dec 11, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

lol you think changing the weapon will improve the build much?

Guardian of the Light · Dec 11, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

i think that idea of 2 sword 2 axe 2 hammer and splitting into 2 groups is very good.I'm going to create the build now.

I actually remember one time before the stupid rumor came out when I went in an IWAY group with 2 sword, 2 ax and 2 hammer. It was very fun and we went deep into the hall of heroes.

Neo-LD · Dec 11, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

axes DO spike better, its not a myth. This is because deep wound is applie don the same attack as a ~100 dmg swing. Followed by exec trike you get a spike of 200 dmg + deep wound (basically 300 dmg) in less than 1 second if you are under frenzy. The nearest sword equivelent is galrath/final, which is more expensive, drains all adrenaline at the end, and only causes ~240 dmg if final gets its bonus dmg. Speaking of adrenalie costs, they are overwhelingly in favor of axe, so they will be able to spike far more often. If the sword guy wants deep wound, he must then use sever/gash/galrath/final, which hardly a spike at all since it takes so long. also, using sever and gash makes you use galrath and final EVEN less... one last tidbit, axes score more damage on critical hits.

as per the original question, yes swords can work in iway. Usually it is good to have exactly who iway sword, the rest axe. the reason for the one sword guy is that he doesnt use an attack elite (or at least he shouldt, 100 blades is trash) so he can take charge and otehr various tactics shouts. Charge across 5 warriors = very nice.

iway sword that i thought up in 30seconds

charge
watch yourself
galrath slash
final thrust
thrill of vicotry
flurry
open
res sig

16 sword
11 tactics
9 strength

just use flurry as a cheap way to build adrenaline and make sure it turns off before you spike with galrath final.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 11, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

axes DO spike better, its not a myth. This is because deep wound is applie don the same attack as a ~100 dmg swing. Followed by exec trike you get a spike of 200 dmg + deep wound (basically 300 dmg) in less than 1 second if you are under frenzy. The nearest sword equivelent is galrath/final, which is more expensive, drains all adrenaline at the end, and only causes ~240 dmg if final gets its bonus dmg. Speaking of adrenalie costs, they are overwhelingly in favor of axe, so they will be able to spike far more often. If the sword guy wants deep wound, he must then use sever/gash/galrath/final, which hardly a spike at all since it takes so long. also, using sever and gash makes you use galrath and final EVEN less... one last tidbit, axes score more damage on critical hits.

as per the original question, yes swords can work in iway. Usually it is good to have exactly who iway sword, the rest axe. the reason for the one sword guy is that he doesnt use an attack elite (or at least he shouldt, 100 blades is trash) so he can take charge and otehr various tactics shouts. Charge across 5 warriors = very nice.

iway sword that i thought up in 30seconds

charge
watch yourself
galrath slash
final thrust
thrill of vicotry
flurry
open
res sig

16 sword
11 tactics
9 strength

just use flurry as a cheap way to build adrenaline and make sure it turns off before you spike with galrath final.

Did you honestly read the whole thing?

Quote:

The argument for mixing swords and axes is that multiple deep wounds aren't cumulative -- once you've already evisc'd someone once, more evisc is just an elite executioner's.

I'm getting very tired of repeating that.

And also 100 blades does well in this

Quote:

The sword elite 100 blades might actually do more damage then Evis in an IWAY situation because 100 blades multiples Order, Win and Pred damage by 2!

Sword:

(Order of Vampire+Order of Pain +Pred Season+Winn+Basic Damage) x 100 blades

(13+13+5+4+17)x2

Final Basic Damage: 104

Ax:

Order of Vampire+Order of Pain+Pred Season +Winn +Basic Damage+Extra Evis damage

13+13+5+4+17+34

Final Basic Damage: 86

(these values assume the attribute lvl is 12 in all results should be the same)

Having half swords and half ax is better in IWAY I think.

Remember were not talking about which the better weapon were trying to show that a mix of sword and ax is better then just axes

tuperwho · Dec 11, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Sorry this is a little off topic, and yes it's a noobish question. As far as deep wound goes, I need some education. Everyone is saying that eviscerate does around 200 damage (100 from attack, and 100 from deep wound). This doesn't make sense to me. For example: eviscerate hitting a character with 500 health does 100 damage..... 400/500 health left. Then the deep wound reduces max health (not current health) by 100, making it 400/400 health, not 300/400. The only way the other situation could happen would be if the deep wound is applied first. I hope they didn't program it that a "wound" can precede a strike, though.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I fail to see where deep wound is even applicable until the character is healed to what would normally equate to >80% health. At which point, you'll have a 100 hp head start in killing them (per my 500 example). Please don't flame, but tell me why I'm wrong.

Guardian of the Light · Dec 12, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuperwho

Sorry this is a little off topic, and yes it's a noobish question. As far as deep wound goes, I need some education. Everyone is saying that eviscerate does around 200 damage (100 from attack, and 100 from deep wound). This doesn't make sense to me. For example: eviscerate hitting a character with 500 health does 100 damage..... 400/500 health left. Then the deep wound reduces max health (not current health) by 100, making it 400/400 health, not 300/400. The only way the other situation could happen would be if the deep wound is applied first. I hope they didn't program it that a "wound" can precede a strike, though.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I fail to see where deep wound is even applicable until the character is healed to what would normally equate to >80% health. At which point, you'll have a 100 hp head start in killing them (per my 500 example). Please don't flame, but tell me why I'm wrong.

Deep Wound reduces a target's health by 20% which is about 100 damage in count. The problem is it doesn't stack and can be removed by meld aliment.

tuperwho · Dec 12, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

So even though the skill description says "maximum" health on the guru skill pages, it actually means "current" too? Ok, then that makes it much more usefull. Thanks

SaintGreg · Dec 12, 2005, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I'm not so sure that it does reduce the current health off the top. You would expect that this is how it works, since that is how endure pain and other +health buffs work, but in testing it doesn't seem that way.

Go out from augury and attack a rockshot and get him down to somewhat low health then dismember him. He definitely has deep wound on (you can see the grey arrow), but when it runs out, his health bar is at the same exact spot as it was when he had deep wound on. This is the same no matter how much actual health he has.

So I think while deep wound does reduce maximum health by 20%, you don't do 20% max health damage in applying it, instead it just drops his health by however much it has to to make his percent health stay the same - anywhere from full 20% if he has full health, to 0% if he is at really low health.

If this is actually how it works, that would mean having deep wound in a spike really only helps if its the first thing you do, otherwise you still have to spike through most of his health anyways.

Although I'd love to test this out in reality getting it put on me and actually recording the numbers.

darkMishkin · Dec 12, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

The key attribute for axe warriors is that Axes have a higher critical hit damage. Critical hits are automatic versus fleeing enemies, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but once you've eviscerated someone they tend to try and high-tail it away from you. This is the Axe forte.

I personally like all the warrior weapons, and I would certainly not disregard any of them out of hand. But the simple truth is axes do more damage against panicing opponents.

Patrograd · Dec 12, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Firstly, deep wound reduces both current and maximum health by 20%, but you dont see the current reduction until the target next takes damage, its a known bug.

Secondly, the original IWAy, the build that started the whole crazy thing, consisted of 8 hammer warriors with pets who split into 4 groups of 2 and just, to quote the build designer, 'smashed face'.

Very simple, very basic, all about the knockdowns taking out 4 enemy team members at once. I think given the current anti-IWAY tactic of spreading rather than balling it might be something to run again :-)

Guardian of the Light · Dec 12, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Firstly, deep wound reduces both current and maximum health by 20%, but you dont see the current reduction until the target next takes damage, its a known bug.

Secondly, the original IWAy, the build that started the whole crazy thing, consisted of 8 hammer warriors with pets who split into 4 groups of 2 and just, to quote the build designer, 'smashed face'.

Very simple, very basic, all about the knockdowns taking out 4 enemy team members at once. I think given the current anti-IWAY tactic of spreading rather than balling it might be something to run again :-)

Wow I never knew that

Quote:

The key attribute for axe warriors is that Axes have a higher critical hit damage. Critical hits are automatic versus fleeing enemies, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but once you've eviscerated someone they tend to try and high-tail it away from you. This is the Axe forte.

I personally like all the warrior weapons, and I would certainly not disregard any of them out of hand. But the simple truth is axes do more damage against panicing opponents.

Do you mean higher max damage because I don't think critical hit and the high damage are the same. However I'm going to test (with wild blow) with ax and sword if ax get a noticablely higher damage then its confirmed but if their the same its another myth

Entropius · Dec 12, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Critical hits do two things:

--Automatically score maximum damage
--Treat your weapon attribute as four higher than it actually is.

So, yes, axes crit harder than swords.

a cadet · Dec 12, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

I find the argument between swords and axes in an IWAY very simple. Let me build up to my conclusion:

The point of an IWAy warrior is to provide substantial DPS. This is the original point of an IWAY build, overload the enemies monks with all the damage you do.

Returning to the differences between swords and axes, its rather clear that axes provide more DPS as well as spike damage. So in that perspective its rather simple to me, swords simply cant identically fill the role of an IWAY warrior.

On the other hand, swords are better at spreading conditions (such as bleeding and deep wound), and work well without an elite. In IWAYs, you already have a trapper (well most IWAYs do), so the extra conditions are superflous and do not contribute much. Also, i cant imagine what non-weaponelite you would want to put on an IWAY warrior, so axes fill this role just fine.

On the other hand, hammer warriors are an entirely different ball game. They provide less DPS (simply because they attack slower), but they attack better through things like Aegis, and they can 'knock-lock' an important monk.

From experience, getting knocked down as the only prot monk with Protective Spirit could cost you the match, since you cant really do much when your lying down. So in an IWAY, maybe 1 or 2 hammer warriors would do fine. You cant simply use all hammer warriors or you wouldnt do enough damage over time.

But then again, who really thinks about this when you make IWAY groups

Divine Elemental · Dec 13, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

didnt iway originated via Hammer

all 8 wars Back Breaker from PuG guild?
is it not?

Guardian of the Light · Dec 13, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

I find the argument between swords and axes in an IWAY very simple. Let me build up to my conclusion:

The point of an IWAy warrior is to provide substantial DPS. This is the original point of an IWAY build, overload the enemies monks with all the damage you do.

Returning to the differences between swords and axes, its rather clear that axes provide more DPS as well as spike damage. So in that perspective its rather simple to me, swords simply cant identically fill the role of an IWAY warrior.

On the other hand, swords are better at spreading conditions (such as bleeding and deep wound), and work well without an elite. In IWAYs, you already have a trapper (well most IWAYs do), so the extra conditions are superflous and do not contribute much. Also, i cant imagine what non-weaponelite you would want to put on an IWAY warrior, so axes fill this role just fine.

On the other hand, hammer warriors are an entirely different ball game. They provide less DPS (simply because they attack slower), but they attack better through things like Aegis, and they can 'knock-lock' an important monk.

From experience, getting knocked down as the only prot monk with Protective Spirit could cost you the match, since you cant really do much when your lying down. So in an IWAY, maybe 1 or 2 hammer warriors would do fine. You cant simply use all hammer warriors or you wouldnt do enough damage over time.

But then again, who really thinks about this when you make IWAY groups

I'm getting tired of quoting myself

Quote:

The sword elite 100 blades might actually do more damage then Evis in an IWAY situation because 100 blades multiples Order, Win and Pred damage by 2!

Sword:

(Order of Vampire+Order of Pain +Pred Season+Winn+Basic Damage) x 100 blades

(13+13+5+4+17)x2

Final Basic Damage: 104

Ax:

Order of Vampire+Order of Pain+Pred Season +Winn +Basic Damage+Extra Evis damage

13+13+5+4+17+34

Final Basic Damage: 86

(these values assume the attribute lvl is 12 in all results should be the same)

Sword wins! However I am not saying axe should be taken out if one ax warrior is using Evis then deep wound goes on and swords then can wait for orders to come out and they can attack the target to deal a large amount of damage.

Although that cricitical hit thing had a good point its still a rare hit.....

I don't know where the idea that sword is more condition based came from but look at the skills.

Sword Damage skills
100 Blades {E}
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust
Pure Strike
Seeking blade

Ax Damage Skills
Cleave {E}
Cyclone Ax
Exicuter's Strike
Eviscerate {E}
Penatrating Blow
Swift Chop

Wow ax has 1 more big deal.

But of these you choose 1 elite and 1 non-elite damage skill.

Sword: 100 blades and Final Thrust

Ax: Eviscerate and Exicuter's Stike

Now as you saw 100 blades CAN do very well in this.

Orderer orders---->100 blades---> Eviscerate when it charges up----->Exicuter's + Final to finish

It doesn't exactly have to follow that exact path but as you cna see 2 sword and 2 ax can work.

qwe4rty · Dec 13, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

I'm getting tired of quoting myself

I don't know where the idea that sword is more condition based came from but look at the skills.

Because you can get conditions faster with the right set up.

Bleeding and Deep wound, both low adrenaline
Hamstring is unconditional
Add virulence, you got a ton of conditions

(At least, tahts how i do it)

Holy Arch · Dec 13, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

no. not at all.